The Spoon Theory written by Christine Miserandino

 

Please take the time to read Christine Miserandino’s personal story and analogy of what it is like to live with sickness or disability.

Click HERE to download “The Spoon Theory” in PDF format.

The Spoon Theory

by Christine Miserandino www.butyoudontlooksick.com

My best friend and I were in the diner, talking. As usual, it was very late and we were eating French fries with gravy. Like normal girls our age, we spent a lot of time in the diner while in college, and most of the time we spent talking about boys, music or trivial things, that seemed very important at the time. We never got serious about anything in particular and spent most of our time laughing.

Cartoon image of Christine Miserandino holding a spoon
As I went to take some of my medicine with a snack as I usually did, she watched me with an awkward kind of stare, instead of continuing the conversation. She then asked me out of the blue what it felt like to have Lupus and be sick. I was shocked not only because she asked the random question, but also because I assumed she knew all there was to know about Lupus. She came to doctors with me, she saw me walk with a cane, and throw up in the bathroom. She had seen me cry in pain, what else was there to know?

I started to ramble on about pills, and aches and pains, but she kept pursuing, and didn’t seem satisfied with my answers. I was a little surprised as being my roommate in college and friend for years; I thought she already knew the medical definition of Lupus. Then she looked at me with a face every sick person knows well, the face of pure curiosity about something no one healthy can truly understand. She asked what it felt like, not physically, but what it felt like to be me, to be sick.

As I tried to gain my composure, I glanced around the table for help or guidance, or at least stall for time to think. I was trying to find the right words. How do I answer a question I never was able to answer for myself? How do I explain every detail of every day being effected, and give the emotions a sick person goes through with clarity. I could have given up, cracked a joke like I usually do, and changed the subject, but I remember thinking if I don’t try to explain this, how could I ever expect her to understand. If I can’t explain this to my best friend, how could I explain my world to anyone else? I had to at least try.

At that moment, the spoon theory was born. I quickly grabbed every spoon on the table; hell I grabbed spoons off of the other tables. I looked at her in the eyes and said “Here you go, you have Lupus”. She looked at me slightly confused, as anyone would when they are being handed a bouquet of spoons. The cold metal spoons clanked in my hands, as I grouped them together and shoved them into her hands.

I explained that the difference in being sick and being healthy is having to make choices or to consciously think about things when the rest of the world doesn’t have to. The healthy have the luxury of a life without choices, a gift most people take for granted.

Most people start the day with unlimited amount of possibilities, and energy to do whatever they desire, especially young people. For the most part, they do not need to worry about the effects of their actions. So for my explanation, I used spoons to convey this point. I wanted something for her to actually hold, for me to then take away, since most people who get sick feel a “loss” of a life they once knew. If I was in control of taking away the spoons, then she would know what it feels like to have someone or something else, in this case Lupus, being in control.

She grabbed the spoons with excitement. She didn’t understand what I was doing, but she is always up for a good time, so I guess she thought I was cracking a joke of some kind like I usually do when talking about touchy topics. Little did she know how serious I would become?

I asked her to count her spoons. She asked why, and I explained that when you are healthy you expect to have a never-ending supply of “spoons”. But when you have to now plan your day, you need to know exactly how many “spoons” you are starting with. It doesn’t guarantee that you might not lose some along the way, but at least it helps to know where you are starting. She counted out 12 spoons. She laughed and said she wanted more. I said no, and I knew right away that this little game would work, when she looked disappointed, and we hadn’t even started yet. I’ve wanted more “spoons” for years and haven’t found a way yet to get more, why should she? I also told her to always be conscious of how many she had, and not to drop them because she can never forget she has Lupus.

I asked her to list off the tasks of her day, including the most simple. As, she rattled off daily chores, or just fun things to do; I explained how each one would cost her a spoon. When she jumped right into getting ready for work as her first task of the morning, I cut her off and took away a spoon. I practically jumped down her throat. I said ” No! You don’t just get up. You have to crack open your eyes, and then realize you are late. You didn’t sleep well the night before. You have to crawl out of bed, and then you have to make your self something to eat before you can do anything else, because if you don’t, you can’t take your medicine, and if you don’t take your medicine you might as well give up all your spoons for today and tomorrow too.” I quickly took away a spoon and she realized she hasn’t even gotten dressed yet. Showering cost her spoon, just for washing her hair and shaving her legs. Reaching high and low that early in the morning could actually cost more than one spoon, but I figured I would give her a break; I didn’t want to scare her right away. Getting dressed was worth another spoon. I stopped her and broke down every task to show her how every little detail needs to be thought about. You cannot simply just throw clothes on when you are sick. I explained that I have to see what clothes I can physically put on, if my hands hurt that day buttons are out of the question. If I have bruises that day, I need to wear long sleeves, and if I have a fever I need a sweater to stay warm and so on. If my hair is falling out I need to spend more time to look presentable, and then you need to factor in another 5 minutes for feeling badly that it took you 2 hours to do all this.

I think she was starting to understand when she theoretically didn’t even get to work, and she was left with 6 spoons. I then explained to her that she needed to choose the rest of her day wisely, since when your “spoons” are gone, they are gone. Sometimes you can borrow against tomorrow’s “spoons”, but just think how hard tomorrow will be with less “spoons”. I also needed to explain that a person who is sick always lives with the looming thought that tomorrow may be the day that a cold comes, or an infection, or any number of things that could be very dangerous. So you do not want to run low on “spoons”, because you never know when you truly will need them. I didn’t want to depress her, but I needed to be realistic, and unfortunately being prepared for the worst is part of a real day for me.

We went through the rest of the day, and she slowly learned that skipping lunch would cost her a spoon, as well as standing on a train, or even typing at her computer too long. She was forced to make choices and think about things differently. Hypothetically, she had to choose not to run errands, so that she could eat dinner that night.

When we got to the end of her pretend day, she said she was hungry. I summarized that she had to eat dinner but she only had one spoon left. If she cooked, she wouldn’t have enough energy to clean the pots. If she went out for dinner, she might be too tired to drive home safely. Then I also explained, that I didn’t even bother to add into this game, that she was so nauseous, that cooking was probably out of the question anyway. So she decided to make soup, it was easy. I then said it is only 7pm, you have the rest of the night but maybe end up with one spoon, so you can do something fun, or clean your apartment, or do chores, but you can’t do it all.

I rarely see her emotional, so when I saw her upset I knew maybe I was getting through to her. I didn’t want my friend to be upset, but at the same time I was happy to think finally maybe someone understood me a little bit. She had tears in her eyes and asked quietly “Christine, How do you do it? Do you really do this everyday?” I explained that some days were worse then others; some days I have more spoons then most. But I can never make it go away and I can’t forget about it, I always have to think about it. I handed her a spoon I had been holding in reserve. I said simply, “I have learned to live life with an extra spoon in my pocket, in reserve. You need to always be prepared.”

Its hard, the hardest thing I ever had to learn is to slow down, and not do everything. I fight this to this day. I hate feeling left out, having to choose to stay home, or to not get things done that I want to. I wanted her to feel that frustration. I wanted her to understand, that everything everyone else does comes so easy, but for me it is one hundred little jobs in one. I need to think about the weather, my temperature that day, and the whole day’s plans before I can attack any one given thing. When other people can simply do things, I have to attack it and make a plan like I am strategizing a war. It is in that lifestyle, the difference between being sick and healthy. It is the beautiful ability to not think and just do. I miss that freedom. I miss never having to count “spoons”.

After we were emotional and talked about this for a little while longer, I sensed she was sad. Maybe she finally understood. Maybe she realized that she never could truly and honestly say she understands. But at least now she might not complain so much when I can’t go out for dinner some nights, or when I never seem to make it to her house and she always has to drive to mine. I gave her a hug when we walked out of the diner. I had the one spoon in my hand and I said “Don’t worry. I see this as a blessing. I have been forced to think about everything I do. Do you know how many spoons people waste everyday? I don’t have room for wasted time, or wasted “spoons” and I chose to spend this time with you.”

Ever since this night, I have used the spoon theory to explain my life to many people. In fact, my family and friends refer to spoons all the time. It has been a code word for what I can and cannot do. Once people understand the spoon theory they seem to understand me better, but I also think they live their life a little differently too. I think it isn’t just good for understanding Lupus, but anyone dealing with any disability or illness. Hopefully, they don’t take so much for granted or their life in general. I give a piece of myself, in every sense of the word when I do anything. It has become an inside joke. I have become famous for saying to people jokingly that they should feel special when I spend time with them, because they have one of my “spoons”.

© Christine Miserandino

*We have English, Spanish, French and Hebrew translations of “The Spoon Theory” available.

You may NOT publish or re-print this article without the written permission of Christine Miserandino and ButYouDontLookSick.com. Thank you.

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  • Babyd0lll03

    your story is truly inspiring, thank you for sharing it will all of us and opening our eyes to the complexity within our everyday, simple lives. 

  • i’m sorry i can’t buy one of these as both my husband and i are disabled. i have fibromyalgia, diabetes, chronic fatigue. i also have a thyroid problem that limits my energy as well as all the other things that cause debilitating drains on anything that needs to be done. some people just don’t understand what i mean when they ask what i did today and i answer – that i got up. i have heard the story once before and i thought it was a very effective explanation. thank you.

  • Sumlin

    Very few people understand the spectrum.. I try and explain how I can’t every time I’m told I “just need to learn to relate to ‘normal’ people”.. Or I’m told to just “dumb it down” but I truly can’t help the random facts that come out.. and I don’t know how to react when the conversation is about “cute things’.. It’s like asking me to speak elephant or something.

  • Uberfrau13

    Thank you so much for posting this! Once healthy, active and very athletic, I have now lived with Severe Chronic Neutropenia and Chronic Fatigue Syndrome for 6 or so years. And this is exactly how I live my days since the illness began. There is so much frustration, deep isolation and even shame in trying to explain this to friends and family in a way they can truly understand… But I think the Spoon Theory will do it! My husband found this, and said it will really help him to explain my illness (and our family reality) to people in his own social circle who are having a very hard time understanding why we so rarely join in on extra activities… I am the one who is sick, but my family is also forced to deal differently these days because my husband and even my 3 year old daughter have more than their “fair” share of the daily task load to carry in order to help me hold onto that precious spoon in reserve. Brilliant article. THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU for it.                                                                                                           Corina, in Canada

  • Donella

    this is great, i have ulcerative colitis and wish id had a print out to show my specialist when in response to me saying “im just so tired all the time i can hardly breath im struggling to work even part time” he said, “we all get tired, you need to get a grip, i manage to work” when i asked what illness he had he said none….

  • Steve Chisnall

    One “friend” of mine tells me he thinks I should research ways to increase the number of spoons I have available to me. I need advice on how/if that’s feasible (i’m autistic) and moreover, if it’s NOT feasible or worse, if it’s not even POSSIBLE, i need a way to explain to him why it isn’t possible (he tends to be the ‘you’re not trying hard enough’ type when I try to tell him I’m having difficulties).

  • Dianne31331

    I’ve got fibromyalgia, I tell people its like having the flu x 10:( but the spoons is an excellent way to explain the choices that we have to make each day:)

  • Fairymom001

    Thank you for this, I am posting this on my face book if you don’t mind.

  • Di Beckett

    Can I put this on my Facebook timeline? I really need my friends and family to read this!
    Thank you!

  • Heather Lynn

    You are not alone.

    I’m down to the (embarrassing) number of around 1 shower per week. Before my chronic pain began, I was able to shower at least once a day (usually twice a day– before and after work) without giving it a single thought. It’s one of the more difficult things for me to accept and deal with even after many years of living with constant pain, and the limitations it puts on every aspect of my life.

    Take care! Try to remember you’re not the only one, if it helps you to feel less alone. 🙂

  • Lynn

    This fits so. very. perfectly for my daily struggle with chronic pain and EDS (Ehler’s Danlos Syndrome.)

    I showed this article to my boyfriend a couple years ago, and although he cried and asked me if this is how I had to live, he understood my actions and decisions *so* much better afterwards. We talk in “spoons” to this day, regarding my activities.

    I had to find this article again, because I had to move back in with my father. (I’m unable to work, and am waiting on my disability hearing.) I’ve been using all my spoons, and then some, every day to try to unpack a few items/clean up a bit/etc., and at the end of last night I didn’t have any spoons left to go down the stairs, get a trash bag, go back upstairs, and put the dirty paper towels I’d used to clean my bathroom with into the trash bag. I woke up (after only a few hours of sleep due to my out-of-control pain from the last week of daily things I’ve had to add to my limited spoon reserve) to my father coming into my bathroom to help me by scooping the litter box (used to have to be done by my boyfriend, before the recent move, because it takes me a ridiculous amount of spoons and pain to get on the floor to do.) I was then chastised for having the paper towels covering my bathroom countertop. I hate that they’ve got to be there more than anyone because it’s my personal bathroom that I have to use! I tried to explain that I did too much, again, yesterday and could not get to it yet, but he definitely didn’t understand why I was unable to do something that no normal person has to even think about before doing.

    I am printing off multiple copies of this (as soon as I’m able to make it down the stairs,) and I’m going to give one to him and one to a doctor I (have to) go to for my pain management. Hopefully this will help both of them to realize that I’m not choosing to avoid doing what seem like routine daily tasks to a person who has never had to live with chronic pain.

    Thank you so much for sharing your wonderful spoon theory!!

  • This saved my friendship. I had to use it to make someone realize I was not being “Flaky” when it came to them. Almost instantly they started crying. I said, that is not why I showed it. I want you to understand they way I work sometimes. THANK YOU FOR THIS!!!

  • Ezma5683

    My daughters and I suffer from the pain of EDS, and your theory fits perfect! Thank you so much!!!! 

  • Thank you for writing this

  • Lelane

    Thanks…Now I even know…God Bless You.

  • Friendsofcarmen Morris

    I don’t have Lupus, I have chronic pancreatitis.  Same lost of a previous healthy life. Every day is a question…will I be able to function today?  Chronic Pain that even your closest loved one does not understand.  Not a easy life.  God Bless everyone!

  • Sallyhatcher1

    Thank you Christine. This help a lot.

  • Lamplightcrafts

    I found that I like The Spoon Theory, it can be applied to my own situation.  My son has cerebral palsy, and in our quest to provide him with an outstanding quality of life, we hold his spoons and our own as well.  That is what life is like living with someone who has a disability.

  • this is why I am am now on disability, between having bipolar 2 and diabetes 2 I am always short of “spoons”

  • Vivienne Macfarlane

    Dear Christine!!
    What a beautiful piece!!
    I too have a chronic illness and found myself in so many of your words!
    We do what we have to do to get through each day without complaining or sharing our pain and thoughts!
    I am going to ask my family to read this not that it want them to change, but just so they understand a little of what we actually go through without it sounding like I am complaining!!
    So thankyou I commend you on writing this beautiful piece!!
    Keep smiling !!
    Sending warm wishes your way!!
    Vivienne Macfarlane xx

  • RoseSL40

    Excellent explanation of how to deal with the daily cares of chronic pain and missing your loved ones.  I thought I was so alone and just depressed because I’m too dizzy to take a shower.  Now, I realize I’m not alone at all.  I don’t think the people we love, whom are collateral damage, also affected by our illness, realize, just how difficult one single task can be.  This is an explanation I can share with others.  Thanks for the inspiration.

  • Clairthienel

    i have M.E and having to justify and explain my illness to ‘healthy’ people all the time seems to be a constant competition for some people of ‘who is the most tired’ and ‘whos job is the hardest’, i am so glad to have found a way to explain M.E to other people! thank you soo much!

  • Hi Sarah,

    It has been a while, but I have a label for my illness.  It’s called a conversion disorder, which means that the impact that the physical, emotional and psychological elements of a person have on each other is much greater than the average, even to the point of being dangerous.  My symptoms include erratic chronic fatigue and pain, muscle spasms (sometimes to the point of seizure), irrational phobic and/or panic attacks, and dissociation (ability to hear/feel/perceive things without ability to respond with movement or speech).  It literally is “all in my head”, but without knowing the cause, it isn’t easily treatable.  Vaguely manageable, to a certain extent, but not yet curable.

    I am very glad to hear that you have found some answers.  I hope and pray that this new knowledge of your allergies leads to a fuller and more energetic life for you.

    Stay salubrious,
    Errylynne

  • Kathryn Taylor

     What a gift you have given us Christine! Having both rheumatoid and osteoarthritis as well as carpal tunnel and fibromyalgia (and being a thyroid cancer survivor), I understand all too well your spoon analogy. Thank you for taking the time (and using however many spoons you had to use) to write your story. It is so well written. I’m very grateful. Kat

  • Kathryn Taylor

    What a gift you have given us Christine! Having both rheumatoid and osteoarthritis as well as carpal tunnel and fibromyalgia (and being a thyroid cancer survivor), I understand all too well your spoon analogy. Thank you for taking the time (and using however many spoons you had to use) to write your story. It is so well written. I’m very grateful. Kat

  • This is like reading the story of my life. I have fibromyalgia and this is the best explanation I have ever heard to explain to people what it is like…every day.

  • Colomba

    Thank you, I have some health issues which my friends complain that I dont go out as much and spend as much as I used too. The spoon theory is brilliant I will be using it to explain to them Thank you again

  • Malokiablossom

    Thank you! I have fibormyalgia & I often feel that people don’t believe that it is a real illness, or that I have it. I would love to post a link on my twitter & FB accounts, if that is ok?

  • Kristine

    This is so cool. It makes it so easy to explain to someone who constantly complain that you didn’t do something. Thank you!

  • Deborah

    Thank you, I have Fibromyalgia, and this seems like a great way to explain it as well. I wish you well, and many spoons.

  • McFripp

    Thank you for sharing, i have friends afflicted, and understood it was tough, but this puts their lives in perspective as to the toils of daily life that we don’t see

  • Thanks. I’m finding it useful to explain how living with severe depression effects a person. Though with depression the amount of spoons you have seems to vary wildly! Today I have quite a few. Tomorrow I may only have half a dozen.

  • Adwin_ca

    I am fortunate enough to have good physical health, but I do live with a mental illness, and it is remarkable how apt a description this is for both physical and psychological health issues. I’ve used this article to explain my own condition to people, and it is tremendously useful. I thank you for writing it, and I wish you the very best.

  • Jjeanep

    This is the best way of explaining one of the many diseases that is difficult to explain, especially to well people.
    Thanks Sis.
    Jack

  • Chris

    Wish I could of read thIs years ago when my mom was still alive , she would try to explain it, but now I th ink I truely understand.

  • I can’t tell you what this post means to me.  I have FMS (among other things), and it’s so hard to explain to people why you can’t get together like you used to.  I’ve shared it on Facebook and I hope everyone reads it.  I was happy to find this site in general.  You’re doing great things, and I hope you’re doing well!!! xo

  • Oh my, I’m sure you don’t want to read anymore comments on this post, but I have to write one. As someone who suffers with a still undiagnosed illness but goes through this same thing every day, trying to balance everything I need to do with the few spoons I have, I think this is a WONDERFUL post that I am going to share with others, and I think it’s wonderful that you have someone in your life who wanted to truly understand. Many of us do not, so you should most definitely cherish her! I’m glad I found this because it’s always nice to know that others out there know what you’re going through.

  • mario

    I I enjoyed your spoon story. I know exactly what it is like to be sick and have to take medication everyday and no 1 can tell that you’re very sick. so therefore, I can relate. And so I wish you well I give you my best, and may the Lord bless and keep you.;-)

  • Teri Carter

    Thank you for sharing the spoon theory, What a great way to help explain what its like everyday to have to make choices on what you can do. Today is a day, that I don’t have any spoons they have all been put away. So it’s bed for me.

  • Bronwyn

    Thank you so much for this explanation. I lived with chronic inflammation and fatigue for 16 years before it was correctly diagnosed. The sensation that my bones, especially my spine, were on fire was dismissed as psychosomatic because I was 17 at the time. My current doctor, after 5 docs including a specialist, finally put me on the right medication and lifestyle changes, including what you have so eloquently described as the spoon theory.

    Thank you, thank you, thank you!

  • Krista Boyer Dotson

    I also have Hypothyroid I didn’t realize it was a part of Lupus. that was an interesting post on here. so I deal with Hypothyroid, Fibro, Leg Nuralgia, Sympethetic Nervous syndrom, Migranes, Anxiety, stress, and depression. Possilbe Disautonomia. but never though of Lupus being a part of this. something to look into I guess. Thanks for that listing.

  • sarah j

    oh my thankyou so much for finding a way to describe in a way that everyone can understand .. i have freinds who suffer similarliy for anumber of varying health reasons but i know this applies across hte board .. my husband has fibromyalgia .. i have arthritis , anxiety and panic attacks .. it just sums up perfectly
    may God bless you xx

  • Jan

    Just read the spoon theory, and am thankful there is a forum for “invisible” diseases.

    After an auto accident, I was diagnosed with CFS/Fibromyalgia. In addition, I have asthma and hypersensitive airways. It is a constant challenge to go to public places since now so many people wear fragrance of some type. The mall, church, doctor’s offices, theater, restaurants, to name a few, are all challenging. Chemical sensitivities are SO isolating…I hope more public awareness of the problem will be forthcoming. We look OK, but things aren’t as they seem..and family and friends need to be supportive!

  • Kay

    And I thought my RA was bad. When I was first diagnosed, I probably had only a dozen spoons, but now I’m very blessed to have several more. I’m far from being in remission, but things are so much better than they have been. Thanks so much for giving me a good way to explain my disease to my friends because . . . I don’t look sick!

  • Love this! Helps me. I know I can’t do all the things I used to do but feel guilty some days that I don’t. I have had five lumbar surgeries and one dorsal column stimulator implant surgery. I grow extra scar tissue which impinges nerves. I know all this is fact, but some family still think I just need to”get up and move.” I am going to use the “spoons” in my mind. Like today I need to drive later for son’s lessons so saving spoons for that by not being as busy in house during day. Looks lazy to those family members, but I can say,”I don’t have enough spoons for my son and he deserves those.”

    Thank You for this analogy! It will help me!

  • Dawn

    I cried ! This is such a perfect way….. I do feel this way every day and most people Dont understand !It’s a very though disease. My mother had lupus and now so do I ..

  • Krista Boyer Dotson

    My sister sent this to me and told me after reading this she understood more about what I go through. I always tell my family I have what I cal May be days every day I just never know what will happen or how I am going to feel or what the weather will bring for me pain wise etc. the 2 hours to get ready is so true in my case some time 3 hours so I have to plan on that when getting ready others don’t understand that when I may say something about getting together at a early hour. For me it means getting up three hours earlier than everyone else just to get ready. Then I have a 12 year old I help get ready as well so I have to plan that time in as well. so if I am feeling bad I have to plan on even more time for that morning even if I didn’t sleep all night. I feel horrible when I have to pass up going some place to meet with family I miss them and think about them the whole time and the guilt is simply unbarable. I want my old out going self back so bad but this is my life and it is hard trying to get others to understand this is just how it is and it is not you I still love you and still want to be with you and spend time with you and go out and have fun but I just can’t so much because of the pain etc. The guilt of not being able to work to help out with money at home is horrible as well and spening more time with my kids hurts I want that time with them so bad I have forced my self to the VERY VERY max in able to do that at times. Special events I force as hard as I can to make sure I am there on the outside I try to look happy feeling okay etc but on the inside I am falling apart and can’t wait to lay down for the night and get the swelling in my legs to go down so they wont hurt so bad along with other pain ful things. Anyway I cryed so hard with I read this because it is so much how I feel every single day I am so happy my sister sent it to me and said what she did. I love her for trying hard to understand I want to cry happy tears for that part. Thanks so much for putting your story out there for everyone. I did get a book for my kids to read but they never had any interest aslso my family but again no interest in even looking through it. I don’t know. Anyway I have Fibro, Leg Nuralgia, Sypethetic Nervous Syndrom, Nerve damage from a Car Accedant and Migrain headaches along with Anxiety and stress issues and bad depression. Also the shower part I so get. lifting and lowering to wash hair and clean then gettingout to dry and then the cold air hitting my skin burns. then having to fix my hair and make up etc I go sometime two weeks with out showering only because it is so hard to do. I am lucky to have thick hair and hair pony tails I can put in or buns to keep it looking okay. I am thankful to you again. Thanks so much Krista Boyer Dotson… [email protected]

  • Eileen

    This is so simple and yet so profound. It explains perfectly how I feel every day living with ankylosing spondylitis. I’ve shared with everyone I know. I’m excited to explore the website. It couldn’t have come to me at a better time!

  • This is such a wonderful exchange of real life experiences – this is what we support at http://www.treatmentdiaries.com. Healing is felt through the exchange of words and people feel better when they are connected to those who can relate and provide encouragement. We invite you to give us a visit, take a few seconds to join and begin a private experience through your own personal diary. It’s free and always available. Come scribble with us!

  • Thank you! Very articulate and well written. I have chronic daily migraines and relate very much.